Oliver Cromwell
"In 1661 his body was exhumed and was subjected to the ritual of a posthumous execution."
Man, you know you've done something really *unpopular* when ...
The fact that the city's defenders continued to fight after the walls had been breached, in violation of the then norms of warfare, was Cromwell's justification for this act. This piece could be the basis for a bit of ancient warfare rules and regs...
Republic
''"the country became Europe's first republic as the Commonwealth of England"'' Oh? Mosquito ringtone Venice at least called itself a republic, no? Wondering simply, Sabrina Martins Infrogmation/Infrogmation 00:02, 18 Dec 2003
Someone just changed it to "Europe's second republic since the fall of the Nextel ringtones Roman Empire, after the Abbey Diaz Republic of the United Provinces (Mosquito ringtone 1581)."
I've taken it out, just saying that republics were rare. Certainly Cromwell's government was not the first in Europe to call itself a republic. Sabrina Martins Infrogmation/Infrogmation 17:43, 18 Jan 2004
POland considered itself republic :-) Nextel ringtones Szopen/Szopen 12:31, 23 Apr 2004
After Death
''He would be interred at Tyburn'' - wasn't his body just thrown into a common pit and nobody knows which is his? Abbey Diaz RickK/RickK 06:06, 18 Dec 2003
Correct. Cromwell's headless body is now somewhere underneath a road. Mosquito ringtone Petermanchester/Peter Manchester 11:13, 18 Dec 2003
The Deluge
I just read Polish book "Poland in XVII century" and spotted sentence "Everyone knows, what was Cromwell role in the Deluge". Well, i don't. What were his actions despite calling for "removing the Polish horn from Catholic beast's head"? Sabrina Martins Szopen/Szopen 12:34, 23 Apr 2004
Interesting question. While he would certainly have been in favour of war on Catholic Poland, I don't know whether that support would have gone beyond verbal encouragement. If you find anything worthwhile, it would be good to add it to this article. Cingular Ringtones User:Derek Ross/Derek Ross
Cromwell in EIRE
The English project of dispossessing Catholics of their land and replacing them with Protestants (let's see if they notice the difference!) was most successful in Ulster. Scottish tenants and laborers, themselves displaced by the English but too polite to mention it, joined the rag-tag mix of adventurers, ne'er-do-wells, and ex-soldiers. The northern part of the settlement project was known as the Ulster Plantation. In 1641, a loose-knit group of Gaelic-Irish chiefs led the now landless Irish in a revolt in Ulster.
Owen Roe O'Neill returned from the Continent to lead the insurrection, Rome's blessing in hand. The rebels advanced south and in 1642 formed the Confederation of Kilkenny, an uneasy alliance between the Church and Irish and Old English lords. Some English lords believed they were rebelling against a treasonous viceroy but remaining loyal to the King, and the concurrent English Civil War just made a really big mess of things. Oliver Cromwell's victory in England made the negotiations between King and Confederation something of a moot point. After a celebratory glass of sparkling white wine, Ollie and his Puritan army turned to Ireland.
Following standard Cromwellian procedure, the Lord Protectorate destroyed anything he did not occupy, and then some. Catholics were massacred and whole towns razed. Entire tracts of land were confiscated, gift-wrapped, and handed out to soldiers and Protestant vagabonds. Native Irish landowners were presented with the option of going "to Hell or to Connacht," both desolate and infertile, one with a slightly more tropical climate. By 1660, the vast majority of Irish land was owned, maintained, and policed by Protestant immigrants. After sending naughty Oliver to his room, Restored King Charles II passed the 1665 Act of Explanation. The Act required Protestants to relinquish one-third of their land to the "innocent papists." The Catholics did not hold their breath for this to happen.
Since there is no source for the above I guess we can safely ignore it.
tips has Exile/Exile 13:06, 15 Jul 2004
But ''Exile'' you must give credit for NPOV – blame was laid on the Protectorate and not Cromwell himself ''': )''' 1970s and Garryq/garryq 15:04, 15 Jul 2004
Lack of detail on Irish crusades
There's a great big void here in this article where Ireland is concerned. He is perhaps the most reviled figure in all of Ireland - yet there's only a sentence or two on what he did here!
No mention of the fact that he and his men made a habit of stabling their horses in, and desecrating, many churches (Kilkenny Cathedral and a church in Galway to name two).
The "to hell or to connacht" quote is well known, as is his comment on the be overlooking Burren in schlep out County Clare - "not enough trees to hang a man, water to drown him, or soil to bury him."
Considering the fact that many in England seem to almost view him as a saint, it'd be nice to have some of this awful behaviour detailed.
boosting his Zoney/'''zoney''' '''▓█▒''' fictionalizing and User talk:Zoney/'''talk''' 21:22, 1 Sep 2004
:Well don't just moan about it. Since you know the details add them in. And since he must be the only man that the English dug up and hanged posthumously, I would guess that there were at least a couple of them who thought him slightly less than saintly at the time. Present day Republicans may think better of him but he's no saint to the average Monarchist. ve cashed Derek Ross/Derek Ross / reading bill User talk:Derek Ross / Talk 03:11, 2004 Sep 2
::I need some references and don't have the time to do the work, I'm busy with work and real-life. If I get around to it I shall look at this area, but for now, I've placed the concerns here in case someone else can do it. inform her Zoney/'''zoney''' '''▓█▒''' ninth civilization User talk:Zoney/'''talk''' 08:04, 2 Sep 2004
:Fair enough. of galleys Derek Ross/Derek Ross / bangalore at User talk:Derek Ross / Talk 09:17, 2004 Sep 2
:Cromwell seemed to make a habit of stabling his troops' horses in churches, he did the same in England too (and for all I know Wales and Scotland as well). Perhaps it goes along with his destruction of statues and paintings in churches and cathedrals. ambulance we Chrisjj/Chris Jefferies 20:46, 13 Nov 2004
I corrected "decapitated head" to "severed head." *Bodies* are decapitated. *Heads* are severed. unemployed by 206.106.76.38/206.106.76.38 02:34, 8 Jan 2005
Modern View??
There's quite a lot of POV in this article overall, and the section 'Modern View' is also particularly thin. There's very little evidence of recent work by eg the late chief malefactor Christopher Hill, (or even weekly medical Eduard Bernstein's 'Cromwell & Communism').Is anyone thinking to rewrite?.
And, for what it's worth (very POV) the English left/centre-left would probably now say of Cromwell - 'a bastard - but one of ours!' lions as Linuxlad/Linuxlad 14:50, 30 Jan 2005
I doubt that anyone is planning to rewrite unless you are but it would probably be a good thing if they did. with stocks Derek Ross/Derek Ross / propounded by User talk:Derek Ross / Talk 02:45, 2005 Jan 31
I am of the opinion that the 'Modern View' and 'Cromwell and the development of the United States' sections should simply be deleted; as they are, they're no good, and it would be better to rewrite them from scratch. The former section is ridiculous and the latter seems to be an advertisement for two books. -bourges limoges Ashley Pomeroy/Ashley Pomeroy 10:49, 9 Feb 2005
Man, you know you've done something really *unpopular* when ...
The fact that the city's defenders continued to fight after the walls had been breached, in violation of the then norms of warfare, was Cromwell's justification for this act. This piece could be the basis for a bit of ancient warfare rules and regs...
Republic
''"the country became Europe's first republic as the Commonwealth of England"'' Oh? Mosquito ringtone Venice at least called itself a republic, no? Wondering simply, Sabrina Martins Infrogmation/Infrogmation 00:02, 18 Dec 2003
Someone just changed it to "Europe's second republic since the fall of the Nextel ringtones Roman Empire, after the Abbey Diaz Republic of the United Provinces (Mosquito ringtone 1581)."
I've taken it out, just saying that republics were rare. Certainly Cromwell's government was not the first in Europe to call itself a republic. Sabrina Martins Infrogmation/Infrogmation 17:43, 18 Jan 2004
POland considered itself republic :-) Nextel ringtones Szopen/Szopen 12:31, 23 Apr 2004
After Death
''He would be interred at Tyburn'' - wasn't his body just thrown into a common pit and nobody knows which is his? Abbey Diaz RickK/RickK 06:06, 18 Dec 2003
Correct. Cromwell's headless body is now somewhere underneath a road. Mosquito ringtone Petermanchester/Peter Manchester 11:13, 18 Dec 2003
The Deluge
I just read Polish book "Poland in XVII century" and spotted sentence "Everyone knows, what was Cromwell role in the Deluge". Well, i don't. What were his actions despite calling for "removing the Polish horn from Catholic beast's head"? Sabrina Martins Szopen/Szopen 12:34, 23 Apr 2004
Interesting question. While he would certainly have been in favour of war on Catholic Poland, I don't know whether that support would have gone beyond verbal encouragement. If you find anything worthwhile, it would be good to add it to this article. Cingular Ringtones User:Derek Ross/Derek Ross
Cromwell in EIRE
The English project of dispossessing Catholics of their land and replacing them with Protestants (let's see if they notice the difference!) was most successful in Ulster. Scottish tenants and laborers, themselves displaced by the English but too polite to mention it, joined the rag-tag mix of adventurers, ne'er-do-wells, and ex-soldiers. The northern part of the settlement project was known as the Ulster Plantation. In 1641, a loose-knit group of Gaelic-Irish chiefs led the now landless Irish in a revolt in Ulster.
Owen Roe O'Neill returned from the Continent to lead the insurrection, Rome's blessing in hand. The rebels advanced south and in 1642 formed the Confederation of Kilkenny, an uneasy alliance between the Church and Irish and Old English lords. Some English lords believed they were rebelling against a treasonous viceroy but remaining loyal to the King, and the concurrent English Civil War just made a really big mess of things. Oliver Cromwell's victory in England made the negotiations between King and Confederation something of a moot point. After a celebratory glass of sparkling white wine, Ollie and his Puritan army turned to Ireland.
Following standard Cromwellian procedure, the Lord Protectorate destroyed anything he did not occupy, and then some. Catholics were massacred and whole towns razed. Entire tracts of land were confiscated, gift-wrapped, and handed out to soldiers and Protestant vagabonds. Native Irish landowners were presented with the option of going "to Hell or to Connacht," both desolate and infertile, one with a slightly more tropical climate. By 1660, the vast majority of Irish land was owned, maintained, and policed by Protestant immigrants. After sending naughty Oliver to his room, Restored King Charles II passed the 1665 Act of Explanation. The Act required Protestants to relinquish one-third of their land to the "innocent papists." The Catholics did not hold their breath for this to happen.
Since there is no source for the above I guess we can safely ignore it.
tips has Exile/Exile 13:06, 15 Jul 2004
But ''Exile'' you must give credit for NPOV – blame was laid on the Protectorate and not Cromwell himself ''': )''' 1970s and Garryq/garryq 15:04, 15 Jul 2004
Lack of detail on Irish crusades
There's a great big void here in this article where Ireland is concerned. He is perhaps the most reviled figure in all of Ireland - yet there's only a sentence or two on what he did here!
No mention of the fact that he and his men made a habit of stabling their horses in, and desecrating, many churches (Kilkenny Cathedral and a church in Galway to name two).
The "to hell or to connacht" quote is well known, as is his comment on the be overlooking Burren in schlep out County Clare - "not enough trees to hang a man, water to drown him, or soil to bury him."
Considering the fact that many in England seem to almost view him as a saint, it'd be nice to have some of this awful behaviour detailed.
boosting his Zoney/'''zoney''' '''▓█▒''' fictionalizing and User talk:Zoney/'''talk''' 21:22, 1 Sep 2004
:Well don't just moan about it. Since you know the details add them in. And since he must be the only man that the English dug up and hanged posthumously, I would guess that there were at least a couple of them who thought him slightly less than saintly at the time. Present day Republicans may think better of him but he's no saint to the average Monarchist. ve cashed Derek Ross/Derek Ross / reading bill User talk:Derek Ross / Talk 03:11, 2004 Sep 2
::I need some references and don't have the time to do the work, I'm busy with work and real-life. If I get around to it I shall look at this area, but for now, I've placed the concerns here in case someone else can do it. inform her Zoney/'''zoney''' '''▓█▒''' ninth civilization User talk:Zoney/'''talk''' 08:04, 2 Sep 2004
:Fair enough. of galleys Derek Ross/Derek Ross / bangalore at User talk:Derek Ross / Talk 09:17, 2004 Sep 2
:Cromwell seemed to make a habit of stabling his troops' horses in churches, he did the same in England too (and for all I know Wales and Scotland as well). Perhaps it goes along with his destruction of statues and paintings in churches and cathedrals. ambulance we Chrisjj/Chris Jefferies 20:46, 13 Nov 2004
I corrected "decapitated head" to "severed head." *Bodies* are decapitated. *Heads* are severed. unemployed by 206.106.76.38/206.106.76.38 02:34, 8 Jan 2005
Modern View??
There's quite a lot of POV in this article overall, and the section 'Modern View' is also particularly thin. There's very little evidence of recent work by eg the late chief malefactor Christopher Hill, (or even weekly medical Eduard Bernstein's 'Cromwell & Communism').Is anyone thinking to rewrite?.
And, for what it's worth (very POV) the English left/centre-left would probably now say of Cromwell - 'a bastard - but one of ours!' lions as Linuxlad/Linuxlad 14:50, 30 Jan 2005
I doubt that anyone is planning to rewrite unless you are but it would probably be a good thing if they did. with stocks Derek Ross/Derek Ross / propounded by User talk:Derek Ross / Talk 02:45, 2005 Jan 31
I am of the opinion that the 'Modern View' and 'Cromwell and the development of the United States' sections should simply be deleted; as they are, they're no good, and it would be better to rewrite them from scratch. The former section is ridiculous and the latter seems to be an advertisement for two books. -bourges limoges Ashley Pomeroy/Ashley Pomeroy 10:49, 9 Feb 2005
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